How is new-school DDR subpar from old-school DDR?

[Nightime]

I mean, sure... we all complain about every new version that's released, and suck it up anyways. But really... what makes older versions (EXTREME and before) seem like such better games?


I know the Nonstop Megamix CD's used to be cooler, and the biggest difference in those that stands out to me is the removal of the game intro/over parts. The older ones would play the intro song, the mode select/setup screens, and run through a part of the "song select screen" before getting into the meat of the mix. Likewise, they ended with what sounds like the results screen, and the credits/fanfare ending. From SuperNOVA on, though... that was totally overlooked!

There also used to be a better balance of difficulty in licensed tracks - you'd always have at least 2 or 3 really HARD licenses mixed in every good old-school version. GUM, CAPTAIN JACK, SAINT GOES MARCHING, RHYTHM AND POLICE (KOGG3 Mix), Romansu No Kamishima, SO DEEP, CARTOON HEROES are all perfect examples of such. From SuperNOVA on, however, it's like they aren't even allowed the possibility of exceeding a L8 difficulty on Expert; that goes ENTIRELY to boss songs, and MAYBE a few Bemani crossovers, exclusively.


What other differences do YOU notice with the production quality of more modern DDR titles?

[PureBlue]

They seem to put a lot of effort into making the interfaces look nice but not enough effort in getting decent licenses that will appeal to everyone. Music on the Top 40 is annoying, nobody except teenyboppers seriously want to play songs by Fergie/Purefocus. I'm all for variety but putting mainstream pop music into games that originally focused on "indie" europop just doesn't really make sense.

[Suko]

For me, the old DDR mixes had an originality to them that hasn't been seen since 2002. I have to agree with PureBlue's comment. The recent DDR's look awesome, intense, and flashy on the outside, but when you get into it and past the surface, it's just a reskined version of their old game without anything new, save for a different song list.

IMO, in the pre-Extreme games, most of the songs were unknown and generally unheard of by the average person (So DEEP and Butterfly comes to mind). I loved playing those games and listening to music that really clicked with me. I wish I could identify why, but I really like the pre Extreme music. Songs like Boom Boom Dollar, Boys, Hero, Tribal Dance, Dub-i-Dub, etc were just awesome! Unfortunately, you see these songs give way to other music varieties around the time of DDR Max's release. However, I don't think that the music selection alone was enough to disgrace the post-Extreme DDR games.

I believe the biggest influence on our impressions of DDR since Extreme have been from In the Groove. For the record, I don't want to start an ITG vs DDR debate here. I love both and I play both regularly. However, ITG did bring a lot to the table that was new, innovative, and fun. Unfortunately, when Konami sued Roxor and effectively ended ITG, the burden was placed on Konami to show us what they could do. Unfortunately, they didn't do much. Many (including myself) are a bit angry that they killed off an innovative product (ITG), but out of pride (or something else?) they have refused to borrow anything from ITG for DDR. The game hasn't really changed at all since DDR Max introduced Freezes back in 2001. And no, I don't count "Shock Arrows" as something worth noting. Those are a very terrible idea and if they survive to the next version of DDR, I hope they do something proper with them, and treat them like mines, which they should've done in the first place.

I also need to address the issue of stepchart quality. IMO, most of the post-Extreme songs are still decent and fun to play. However, some songs, most notably the boss songs, have been absolutely terrible and ridiculous in the recent mixes. Instead of being a truly legitimate challenge, they are nothing but gimmicks and non sense. However, with DDR X it seems that even the non-boss songs are starting to exhibit equal stupidity. If you want proof of this, just watch this video.

I understand that not every mix can be a superstar success. But since Extreme came out, Konami hasn't pushed the envelope at all. A franchise needs to evolve over time or else it will fail, and Konami is not evolving DDR to keep up with the market. We, the players, have voiced our desires, reactions, and expectations for each and ever DDR Arcade release and Konami seems to barely even hear us. If they wanted to, I believe the solutions to all of their problems can be answered by a few people listing to the input from those on forums like DDRFreak, BemaniStyle, etc. Until Konami sees us as something worth listening to, I don't expect much from any Dance Dance Revolution title.
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[chennymountain]

When ITG came out, a lot of people began leaving DDR in favor of ITG. We all know the story. Konami sued ITG, ITG lost. A lot of people completely dropped DDR and took up ITG. The amount that DDR lacked and ITG had made DDR look bad. When SuperNOVA came out and people found out that it was extreme with a new scoring system (again), new interface, and that left some songs to be desired, they started to become jaded and look down upon every single new DDR release. It's true that Konami seems to be spending too much time with the pretty colors and new characters, and not enough time with the songs and stepcharts, but they did push the envelope a lot with SuperNOVA. Chaos was great. It taught you that a song doesn't have to have tons of steps and go at ridiculous tempos (I'm talking about the Maxes and bag) to be hard. It also introduced the fascination series which are still arguably the 2 hardest songs in DDR. I do admit, Hilary Duff and Fall Out Boy were really bad decisions. Then SuperNOVA 2 reared its ugly head. This game did really suck. It had terrible liscences (Justin Timberlake, Unbelievable, and Ashley Tisdale come to mind.) The boss songs were stupid (Unreal, Trip Machine Phoenix). Arabiatta was NOT fun. And I can't see for the life of me how jun could do Paranoia ~Hades~. Then came Supernova 2 (Arcade)/DDRX. The announcer was SO FREAKING ANNOYING. Of course the DDRX CS kids are angry that they didn't get Mars War 3, Jupiter ~The Bringer of Jollity~, and L'amour et la liberte whatever mix. At least they didn't have any Chris Brown. About the boss songs, Pluto is a great stepchart. Horatio Oni (NACS) is pure evil. All in all, I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate the new game because it's got the same announcer of DDRX, because they put Disturbia in it, and because DDR is never going to put those ITG mods into their own game. As for me, I'll give it another chance. If it sucks, then fine, I'll be ready for lots of big flaming threads like the ones SuperNOVA 2 and X got. If it's good, then yay.

And about that video, wow.
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[v4extreme]

sn1 pwned, best mix so far imo. but even so, it had the hardware issues etc. that were the beginning of... konami basically starting to suck. of course it was all patched and fixable and good, but it was there in the first place...

then sn2 came out and sucked. i dont feel the need to discuss this.

and x.... well....


my basic opinion is that DDR has started to seem desperate with the newer mixes, whereas the older ones were original focused more on things the players care about. now there doing shock arrows and crap, i think post sn1 10's are pretty terrible, basically 9's messed up with bpm changes and stops.
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[Nightime]

Now, the PARANOiA MAX one I can see your point with. But the SP-TRIP MACHINE one is FUN! It's not difficult to time/read at ALL, goes right with the song, and has entirely doable stepping patterns.

I like most of the Heavy/Expert charts to the newer boss songs (save for maybe Pluto Relinquish/Double), but most of the Challenge charts are garbage (HDV, FaXX, NGO, Pluto Relinquish, PARA HADES). At least X seems to be steering them in the right direction. But I also remember when licensed songs had good, hard charts to them, too. Now they just seem entirely like filler.

[chennymountain]

looks like Konami is trying to copy Z.X.Z. or J'ai envie de plaisir X2 but with easier songs. lol
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[pleasedon'thurtme]

Well, I am not sophisticated/experienced enough to criticize the games like you guys do -- I do not have as many complaints largely due to lack of attention to detail and acquired skill. However, one thing even I notice is the design of the Dance Dance Revolution X arcade machine. Is it just me, or are those pads (and the timing for that matter) not of utmost quality? Hm, is nostalgia a possible biasing factor in some people considering older games superior to newer ones? It's really heinous that Konami seems to care more about money than pleasing fans (referring mostly to the In The Groove lawsuit) although I suppose that is the purpose of a business, so should we really blame them? Is there any chance another company will gain the rights to Dance Dance Revolution after Konami retires from it? How awesome would it be if Roxor gained the rights to Dance Dance Revolution?
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[Haoie]

Everyone's into Guitar Hero now, that's what. Nobody cares about dancing!!
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[videoCWK]

[pleasedon'thurtme]

[PureBlue]

[Travelsonic]

[shurf]

To put it simply, Konami completely lost sight of what fans really want. In the old days, DDR was fresh and with every new release more gamers would jump into the scene. Roxor showed Konami that dancing games need to be more challenging. Konami (and their genius step artists) completely degraded the quality of their more challenging songs in an effort to make them more difficult. You'll find a lot of players that can agree that no post Extreme release has better charts than the old games (albeit there are some good ones). Now Konami has no competition again and they can do whatever the hell they want. Its not helping to say the least. What fans want is more of the good stuff. I personally want to see more great charts that are on sync and flow nicely and not riddled with ridiculous gimmicks. I want to see more independent artists and other Bemani game crossover songs instead of mainstream crap that shouldn't even be stepped. Their attempt at making songs harder is a miserable failure. I haven't been all that active in the scene but watching those new charts for old school songs make me cry on the inside. They got the charts right once, no need to add another difficulty to make it freakin insanely annoying to PA. They lost the touch they once had. Here's hoping it comes back.

Also, I could be dead wrong.